Ken Goodman

KEN GOODMAN

“Thank you very much. Glad to participate. (Interviewer speaks) Yeah I’m Ken Goodman and I’m uh Professor Emeritus at the University of Arizona in Tucson. (Interviewer speaks) Uh about a year and a half ago. Not very long no. (Interviewer speaks) Uh from my perspective being literate is being able to make sense of written language. Now that’s a very global kind of definition. Or maybe oth…um base four definition because it also means being able to deal with written language and all the contexts and in all the variations that takes place in ones life. So it isn’t being able to just read books or a newspaper it’s being able to get information from written language, being able to uh the uh access a variety of kinds of of things. Um when a a kid uh we think of kids as being literate if they can read books. But one of the most useful, universal literacy uh aspects is being able to read the TV Guide so you can figure out when your favorite programs are and you don’t have to depend on your brother. So i…it it’s both a simple thing but it’s also very… And from my perspective uh with uh due apologies to some of my colleagues uh the other uses of literacy like being computer literate or being media literate uh are metaphors. There not really the for me the issue is that written language is involved.

“Well uh in my research I have um uh tried to understand reading from the point of view of having people read variety of kinds of text and a variety of kinds of ways of different people children and adults and so forth. And my conclusion has been that there’s a universal reading process. Uh when I say universal reading process I don’t mean that it’s (word?) I don’t mean that it’s independent of what’s being read. What I mean is that there are two ways of making sense of print. That making sense of print involves transacting with the text, constructing meaning, using the the cues that are available in language. Using the the one’s knowledge of the grammar and and of meaning of context to to make sense. Uh obviously uh if you’re reading French and you have to deal with the fact that modifiers uh follow nouns uh they river rouge we say rouge river. Um you have to take i..into that account that it’s still the same process and it’s the same process in Arabic or in non-alphabetic languages.

“K. You need to understand that language itself is both versatile and social. Uh i…it from my perspective is our most human characteristic. It’s what differentiates itself. There are studies of of language-like behavior in animals. Um but no animals have the ability to make joint decisions, to exchange understandings, uh to to learn collectively and written language comes about in human society when we need to communicate over time and space and not just in face to face situations. So the natural development of language is both personal and social. And it’s it’s not an accident. Uh my wife has done a lot of research on kid’s response to print in the environment. Uh we live in a very print rich environment. When I say we, most of the world lives in a print reach…rich environment. So kids are attempting to make sense of print long before anybody instructs them. In that they already are building a strong sense of the social of of written language. One of the interesting developments particularly in Europe is that they’re talking about multiple literacies meaning the different literacies that fit in different social contexts uh that kids encounter. So even very poor children in the United States are aware of the fact that their parents before they go shopping look at the newspapers, cut out coupons uh decide where the best bargains are. Um when they’re going through the streets they use street signs to find their way. Uh fortunately or unfortunately there are very few three year olds that don’t recognize McDonald’s or Dunkin Doughnuts and and those kinds of things so there is a kind of natural transition into literacy that all children in literate societies experience. What we do in school is is put them in an enriched environment a highly literate environment and we build on the literacy that they already have and we introduce them to if they haven’t already experienced them to children’s books and so that process which I’m describing at the beginning continues to happen we never stop learning to read and write. Uh we reach a point in our lives where we have to sign legal contracts, we have to des…decide what we can trust ourselves to read and what we have to hire a lawyer and to to tell us the meaning of of. Uh we uh learn new things, we develop new interests uh if someone becomes a knitter or a fisherman or uh adopts a new hobby or collecting trading cards or there’s a whole literacy involved. An interesting group that I became aware of that somebody was studying was the inner city kids who are not supposed to be highly literate who collect basketball cards and they subscribe to magazines. In the magazines have fine print that tells them the value of particular cards and they are into this highly literate activity even though in schools they may not be treated as highly literate at all.

“Well they they if I put it in it’s broadest sense the uh goal of the teacher is to to support kids in becoming literate. Uh I don’t believe the teachers can make kids literate. I don’t think teachers can control literacy development. What a highly skilled teacher does is to use John Dewey’s term you start where the learner is. You’re aware of this out of school literacy experience that kids are having (clears throat) you build on that. (Clears throat) If you have kids who have are literate that aren’t using their literacy then you help them to develop an awareness of what they can use literacy for. Some kids learn to read and they don’t like to read and we have to help them to think of what are the things that you could be getting out books. It doesn’t have to be literature for some kids would rather read how to do it magazines some kids would like to read non-fiction. I had a parent who called me once and said I’ve got a child who can’t read. In about five minutes I discovered what really happens is the kid comes home and opens an encyclopedia and reads but he’s not reading novels and the parent therefore thinks that’s not reading. So I think the the answer is the teacher’s always looking for ways of building that strength of being aware of of the hang-ups that happen and there are kids who do get hung up uh who become their own worst enemies who are convinced that there’s some problem that a some magic button that they want and patience and teacher understanding and insights into what it is that kids are learning to do is I think is what helps them over that.

“Well that’s my wife’s term. She gets credit for it. Actually she didn’t invent it, we’re not quite sure who did but she is usually credited for it. And that’s uh in in the twenties and thirties we had a developing child study movement in the United States. It got lost in in the um testing kind of thing. There were people who said you’re wasting your time it takes too long to watch a kid uh what you ought to be doing is developing tests that a kid can take in a half hour and check items and so we kind of diminished the value of child study. But essentially what we’re saying is is that if you start where the child is then you have to pay very close attention to what the child is doing. (Clears throat) You have to use your professional knowledge to interpret. If you take a concept like Fagotsky’s own approximal development and Fagotsky the Russian psychologist was essentially saying is there’s a point where kids could learn more than their currently capable of doing. And I a role that the teacher can play is is a mediator who recognizes that. And that’s where the kid watching comes in to know just where that kid is and what would be just the right question to ask, a book to the put in the kid’s hand or… Uh in England they used to have a practice they called hearing children read. Uh I remember this as a child myself you standing with a book waiting for your turn and uh you get to the teacher and you read a paragraph and the teacher puts a little mark on the paper. Uh teachers in England picked up the kid-watching concept because they realized that it helped them to understand where they were supposed to be because they didn’t know you know? You hear the kid read but so what? The teacher has to have knowledge of what the reading process is and how it develops. Um listening to a child read and hearing what we call a miscue and recognizing that the miscue represents an important insight into the knowledge that the kid has. Or it’s a suggestion of an area that the teacher needs to work with the kid on. That’s what the the kid watching part is. It’s an extremely important part of assessment and it depends very strongly on professional knowledge of teachers of kids and learning.
“Ok. Well the whole language uh is a term that became popular beginning about um let’s as we trace it back the late seventies. Uh I first encountered it myself before I started using it among Canadian teachers. And it seems to me having spent some time in Canada with teachers and so forth that they were reacting to our tendency to break things apart uh both in testing and instruction to teach sequences of skills. There was a period in American schools where we had this bed sheet of objectives, five hundred and seventy five objectives, Los Angeles schools had at one time and you were supposed to check them off. Uh what the Canadian teachers said is is what we’re understanding is that you are in the whole and that the whole is much more than the sum of the parts. And that the whole includes two aspects and it what was interesting when my book What’s Whole in Whole Language was translated into Spanish that a big argument over which of two words to use, uh linguahe and tecaraho which means the whole of language or linguahe and tegrado which means integrated language. In in English the word whole serves for both of those and essentially what we’re meaning is we’re trying not to break language apart and to keep it in the context of it’s use. And that also s…from a curriculum point of view means that the the language and what we’re learning through language are not separated. There isn’t a point where first you learn to read and then you read to learn. The trick for language whether we’re talking about oral or or written language is that you have to learn it in the process of using it. That’s what we know about oral language that kids learn oral language not by parents standing over them and saying sounds and then words and so forth (clears throat) but their experiencing language in a holistic and texturalized situation. Uh reading develops reading and writing very much the same way and what we try to do in school then is to keep the development in the context of it’s use. So there’s this uh which of course is why literature becomes so important rather than than reading materials that hardly make any sense that are focused on controlled vocabulary or teaching sequences of sounds. We’re using whole literature. We get the kids to write very early. We encourage them to play at writing even before school and we have lots of research that shows that kids have been doing on this own anyway. My wife likes to say that parents have been throwing away the evidence of their kids’ writing develop and are scrubbing it off the walls. Uh (clears throat) and and so we get those kinds of insight. It’s a concept that applies to every aspect of education. Uh I’ve learned from elementary teachers techniques that I use in my graduate classes. For instance I have my graduate students um set their own objectives at the beginning of a course. Uh where are you in your development, what is it that you’re for, what do you need to know and at about mid-term we evaluate not in terms of an exam I give but where are you in terms of the development of of your goals? And I’m constantly aware as a kindergarten teacher is that even in a graduate class my students bring very different experiences. They have very different objectives. I get first grade teachers in my classrooms and I get doctoral students. And I can deal with the the range of differences because we integrate around problems. We we let th…the not everybody has to do the same assignment. Have one group of people who are looking at beginning literacy, another group of people who are looking at reading theory and they can support and learn from each other. And it’s very much the same in a in a kindergarten classroom. The teacher finds out which kids are already reading and it’s a question of keep them supplied with books, um um keep them involved, um build on that build on the writing and then you have other kids who need to gently be supported to have a sense of how to hold a book, to um um become aware to to listen to stories so they develop a sense of story which they can then carry into their own reading.

“Sure. Um we’ve learned a tremendous amount uh as a profession and as as a scholarly field of people in in literacy and literacy education. Particularly over the last half-century we’ve um let me start with that. What we know that we didn’t know before. Um i…if you took the era about nineteen fifty which is when I I began my teaching in the late forties. Um it was a progressive era. Uh we we had child centered programs. But in terms of literacy the basil reader was dominant. And the basil reader came out of a um a kind of behavioral view that said learning to read is learning to learn a set of words. And you you have to i…introduce them and then repeat them so many times. So we produced very artificial sounding text like look look, uh run run, see dick run. Um as we began to understand better and this is where linguistic psychology uh child development a lot of fields came together. It wasn’t just reading that was moving in holistic directions. We were moving in holistic directions in science and math and so forth in in understanding that the world is a complex place. So we began to understand reading as a dynamic process, writing as a dynamic process uh not a process of of simply learning to recognize words but a process of making sense of of language. And linguistic psycholinguistics those were very important but the main thing was (clears throat) a simple idea like when we teach reading we’re teaching kids to make sense of something, not to recognize words but to in the process of making sense learn to transact with text to get the to build the our our own kinds of text. Um when I started doing my research uh I felt lonely. Uh I felt lonely. Uh I I made some uh interdisciplinary contacts uh I worked uh with Scott Foresman as the author a basil program because they began to see two things. One was the the civil rights movement had had made people more aware of the need to focus on more on culture, more on um um the kinds of literature that kids were getting but also that that it was possible to build uh inter-reading instruction of a greater use of literature and and so forth. Uh something that I didn’t expect to happen and in retrospect I think I can trace it is that the theoretical understandings that that some of us were developing in terms of the the research we were doing and in the integration of what was happening and cognitive psychology and anthropology, we were studying ethnographies of classrooms. Uh teachers uh reached a level of of professionalization that hadn’t existed before. And from my prospective whole language is much more a teacher movement than it is a top down in position. I get called a guru and that’s both a put down to me and the teachers because implication is that I had these funny ideas and teachers blindly followed. Um nothing like that in in fact is true. I don’t consider myself a charismatic person. I’ve been saying the things I’ve been saying for uh forty years or so and not that I haven’t changed and developed. I wrote an article called uh I Didn’t Found Whole Language, Whole Language Found Me. And essentially what I’m saying is we reached a point where we had sufficiently professional teachers that teachers could say I know how to teach reading. And I’ll select in my classroom the ideas, the concepts, the insights. I was just talking to a woman downstairs who’s a leading professional now. She was one of our students. And the concept of predictable books is has been the dominant kind of thing that is that if if books are predictable to readers, their good materials to use for the readers. Now we’ve known that since This Is The House That Jack Built. But uh we understand better now and teachers know how to to build sensibility. They have a respect for kids’ learning. Now in turn that of course taught me a lot. I I talked about what I’ve learned from teachers that that I used. Uh ok, let’s fast forward now and we reach the point where change has become widespread. Uh not a uniform change but one of the characteristics of American education is that it’s yesterday, today and tomorrow. I can go in the same school building and one teacher is is doing wonderful, innovative things and the next teacher is still using the fifties basil reader and another teacher is Hooked on Phonics. And uh in a sense that makes you tear your hair because you say how do we get progress on the other sense it’s been a hedge against any kind of quick move towards um absurd idea. (Pause) Um we reached the point as I said that I would not have believed where the concept of whole language was so popular among teachers that uh (pause) when they asked them on the National Assessment of uh Educational Progress how many teachers thought that they used whole language. Not some of them said they used phonics and whole language but about eighty percent of teachers said they did. I asked them that is that perhaps fifteen percent of American classrooms were at the point where uh not only the teacher but other people would agree well that’s a whole language teachers always hatch. They don’t say I’m a whole language teacher they say I’m becoming a whole language teacher. Uh what this did though was in an atmosphere in the nineteen e…ninety four election when we had the the contract the um um conservative sweep uh we had a a strong uh reaction against the changes that had been happening in American education. And one of the most visible…in Australia they have a saying the tall poppies are the one’s that got cut down. So whole language was a visible target and we had a a a California situation. They had a new conservative administration a new Superintendent of Instruction and there was a reaction against the California framework that had been launched about a dozen years before and a claim that it had caused a mess of of literacy in California. Um that didn’t overnight change things. Um there there are are teachers that I know who are whole language teachers, maybe quieter about it, but their still doing what their doing to the extent that they’re permitted. But what we had was a shift away from this uh grass roots uh policy being determined by teachers. Uh most places whole language came into school systems not from some administrator but from the ground up or through some middle level uh administrators who were curriculum leaders who had just come out of classrooms. Uh now we’re getting policy uh written into law in Washington, written into law in in our state capitol in Phoenix. I served a a year on a task force and it was a hopeless task because most of the people represented a very narrow point of view. That learning to read is learning a set of phonics skills and that’s all there is to it and uh that the way to make change is to force it. The one thing about whole language that was most exciting for me is that this was a grass roots kind of thing. In the few instances where superintendents came to me and said I want to switch to whole language next September tell me how to do it. I said you can’t because you have to this is something that teachers have to understand, they have to commit to. And besides you can’t coerce change even if it’s good change. The we have a situation now where um uh education policy making and particularly in literacy is is a reached this political level rather than than educational level. Um and there are some people who want to go so far as as to literally send in paradigm police and kindergarten cops to make sure the teachers…and their threatening teacher’s jobs. And in an era where um we already have a (word?) teacher shortage we can’t afford to loose our most experienced, best teachers. But there are a lot of teachers who in some of the more extreme programs they’ve had an eighty percent turnover in there. I heard about one school they they uh were claiming rate success but in the footnote they had an eighty percent turnover of of teachers in a year’s time. Um let me add one thing to that. Um I’m spending my wife and I are spending a lot of time in other countries. Uh there’s a tremendous interest uh in our work in whole language and change. And we have this strange situation that at a time when the United States is moving in a kind of back tracking way and not just the United States, some of the other English speaking countries too. In Latin America, in Asia, in Africa uh there are strong movements toward what they see as a kind of libratory (word?) where they move away from a a very traditional colonial imposed uh curriculum. Uh toward a a much more democratic school uh there is a in in measurable kinds of ways there’s uh much more professionally educated teachers who are capable and and willing to to uh who don’t need to be controlled and who recognize that you can’t become a democratic society using old colonial kinds of things. And they say to us all the time it isn’t that they don’t know what’s happening in the United States they say why would anybody want to go back to what we’re trying to get rid of here?

“Well in in general and this is where I I’m emphasizing the professionalization. What a whole lg…language teacher does depends on what the teacher knows. And uh I don’t mean that every teacher has to have a PhD or or or uh have tremendous insights, what I mean is they have to have a a basic understanding of what literacy is, how it works, about the relationship of language and learning. They have to be good kid watchers because they have to to be able to see where a child is, to see what that child is ready for, to to differentiate their instruction, uh depending on defined strengths where other people have seen weaknesses uh and they have to be able to run a three-ring circus. That is uh you can’t really have a whole language classroom where everybody’s at the same point on the same page doing the same thing. One of the the put downs of whole language is that our classrooms are noisy, that uh you walk in the room and it takes you five minutes to figure out who’s the teacher and where the teacher is because the teacher’s not sitting at a desk or sitting in front of the room. The teacher’s kneeling next to some kid or sitting on a kindergarten chair with a small group of kids. Um so the the number one whole language teachers are professionals. And in a sense that they have a professional level of education and a success in the sense that they take a professional’s view of their uh knowledge and their control. Uh in in a public school classroom you work for you’re not an independent contractor like a doctor often is uh although their having problems, too. Um so you work within policies that are state policies and board policies and school policies. On the other hand professional teachers say if you want to me to be responsible for what happens in my classroom you also have to give authority to me. You have to trust me to make my own decisions, to not tie my hands with tests or textbooks or whatever, to let me use my professional judgment about what any kid or group of kids in my class needs. Uh some administrators haven’t liked that, others have recognized that you’re an empowered administrator if you have empowered teachers. And being empowered isn’t something you can give people. They really have to take it themselves.

“Well o…one value simply speaking is when you break it up it isn’t language anymore. And that changes the relative values of things so that uh if I think that that I facilitate reading by breaking it up into words and treating it as as a matter of teaching kids to recognize words what I’m not dealing with is is the myriad meanings that words can have. The the effect on what a word means from the context in which it’s used. The people in California who have essentially s…outlawed context, you’re not supposed to use context, it’s bad some um uh we live in a contextual world. And in nothing we encounter do we encounter out of context. Uh it appeals to some people that you’re simplifying things by breaking them apart. In fact what you’re doing is making it much harder. Uh and there’s ample evidence that kids learn things easily when when they are concrete, when they’re related to functional kinds of things. Uh the reason why the the commercial interests are are so good at teaching kids to recognize McDonald’s and Fruit Loops or whatever is that it’s always in the context of the product and and uh so the kids build very easily. Now the second reason is that in fact um when you break things apart you create a a you would then need some kind of of defendable sequence for deciding what to teach in what order. And that very often gets us into impossible kinds of things. Uh we were in Israel, we spent three weeks in Israel, there’s a lot of interest in whole language there. And um the English teachers there were saying that they were trying to get rid of a system where you don’t get past tense until the third grade. After three years of instruction you can go on, uh that may seem to be a logical progression but you need all the tenses to speak the language. And when you start trying to artificially break things down then you introduce the notion that what you’re teaching is abstraction. And kids are pretty good at learning language they’re not all uniformly good at dealing with abstraction, at putting things back together sort of.

“Ok. Yeah uh let me answer those separately because their not exactly the the same thing. Um ours is an alphabetic uh writing system as are most European languages, the Roman alphabet or the Sorrelic alphabet. And in alphabetic languages there’s a set of relationships between speech and and writing as uh the writing system encodes to some extent a relationship between them. Uh having said that um it’s not a simple set of one to one relationships. And the simple reason for that is I’m producing a sequence of sounds. When I write, I write on a two dimensional space. There are two different sign systems, a term that’s used is semiotic systems, and they don’t correspond on a one to one basis. The way that they correspond is actually through the meaning that that they express. And in that sense you can talk about how a sequence of sounds relates in certain contexts to a sequence of of letter. That’s one problem. The other problem is that virtually all modern languages compromise in their spelling systems as for a variety of reasons uh starting with printers but f…other people too. Uh it’s useful to have a standard spelling across dialects. So I say help, kids in our research they have in Stillwater, Oklahoma they told me it was hailp but we all spell it H-E-L-P. Now what that means though is that if we try to use phonics to teach kids to read and write and we teach them a kind of of autonomous value for letters and sounds then in fact either we have to change the spelling system and and each of us spell our own dialects as we hear them or the kids have to learn that it only gets you close, it doesn’t get you and in some case it doesn’t get you very close at all. If you want to spell was or were uh sounding out is not a terribly good strategy. Let me talk about phonemic awareness now. I think this is one of those cases where experimental research uh led us down a primrose path that isn’t a very useful one. Um (sighs) there are p…there are people who including some pretty smart linguists who believe that languages is oral, that written language is a kind of encoding of oral language, that the only important way that written language relates to oral language is to represent the sounds. So from their prospective in order to be able to read you have to be aware of the sounds of the language. That’s what phonemic awareness means. By sounds I mean the significant sounds, the ones every every um language every dialect of every language chooses a set of of uh non-arbitrary sounds as the ones that are significant. So the reason why Asians sometimes have trouble with with late and rate as that those sounds in their language, in Chinese that’s the same sound. So they have to they have to learn to tune out a difference, they have to learn to hear. But the the um so th…this notion is then that first you have to hear the sounds in the words and then you have to match those with the letters that represent them. Now their calling that phonemic awareness, I would rather call it the ability to deal with sounds and letters abstracted from from language. Now when you do research studies you find that kids who can read are good at phonemic awareness because they understand what you mean when you’re asking what are the sounds and what are the letters. Uh kids who can’t read yet can learn phonemic awareness and it may have nothing to with their because they they learn the they to take the sounds apart. A variation of phonemic awareness is the onset rhyme thing. Instead of saying to the kid what sounds do you hear in in dog you say how does it start and how does it end? Turns out mo…more kids are c…able to do that, starts with do and ends in og. That’s easier than saying it’s composed of duh-ooh-guh. But the notion that by teaching kids to be phonemically aware you have facilitated their learning to read turns the cart around before the horse. You become phonemically aware in the process of learning a language. Uh and um Dick Allington has done an extremely good job of taking the literature on this and demonstrating that uh a fairly high percentage of kids coming to school already can do well on phonemic awareness tests. And they also tend to learn to read fairly easily. Uh another group of kids can learn phonemic awareness but there’s not carry over to their learning to read. There are another group of kids who um can’t learn the phonemic awareness and they also are having trouble learning to read. And then there are a small group of people who seem to be facilitated by phonemic awareness training that is that having had it it’s it seems to facilitate. His his estimate and and and it’s something like five to ten percent of kids seem to profit from the instruction. But it doesn’t warrant having a large number of kids who already know it and a large number of kids who don’t seem to profit from it taking everybody through that. There’s something that I’ve learned they call one-legged models. Uh we have them in education all the time and some of them um have good motivation some of them are are a little bit silly like uh we had a model some time ago that um coming out of physical therapy that argued that kids who had who didn’t have good balance, trouble learning to walk that also and made had trouble learning to language and learning. So we had balance beam training in in schools. We we were teaching kids to walk balance beams and so forth. That’s one kind of one-legged model. Another one-legged model is the phonics model that says here’s something we found, it seems to relate so therefore everybody has to have it and it’s it’s essential. And then even child centered programs the one-legged models if all you do is focus on the child and you’re not also aware of what it is that the child is learning and what kind of social um community sort of the the other aspect of whole language is that it’s it’s deals with language with learning, with teaching, with curriculum and brings all of those things together.

“O…um I think those are let me respond to um I…I think that teachers need a broad understanding of theory. I think teachers that need to think through what their learning theories are that is uh and I hope that they they will arrive at the view that all children are capable of learning, that um they don’t all learn in the same way or in the same time schedule, that the purpose of teaching is to support learning and that’s what’s important about kid watching. That teachers do need to know a lot, they do need to read, they need to go to professional conferences, they need to talk to each other and have study groups, uh those uh kinds of things. A teacher is a professional and professionals don’t stop learning. Uh and on the other hand um I would hope that teachers wouldn’t get caught in to a kind of narrow paradigm where they stop learning because everyth…they’ve learned to fit everything in to this this narrow thing. I think there has to been be what’s philosophers sometimes call practi…praxsis which is kind of interplay between theory and practice. And they have to ask questions, if you’ve got a kid who’s puzzling you that’s another good learning opportunity to ask other teachers, to ask professors, to ask uh um to interrogate the the literature and and say can I use this in what I’m doing. I I’ve had a Chinese graduate student who has a job in Taiwan where she develops materials and and does it’s half development. Every class that she’s taken from me, everything that she’s read she’s constantly saying how am I gonna use this in my teaching, how am I gonna use this to support my teachers uh c…is this useful, is it true, can they make sense of it. That’s the kind of attitude that I would like teachers to have. I’d also like them to understand that they need to talk back to administrators and people like me. They need to say to me that’s all well and good but you don’t have the kids that I have in my classroom and what about this and and uh that is to be the skeptics that professionals need to be. Was there another part to your question that I’m…

“Ok. Ok. Oh. Let me talk about respect for teachers. Uh i…when you asked when I talked before about uh the changes over time that I’ve seen uh I saw a situation where teachers were gaining respect where people administrators were beginning to say is what I need is a knowledgeable group of teachers. Uh in Canada we also have the best paid and the most respected teachers and I don’t want to say that they’ve been immune to some of the things happening there but it respect for teachers implies that we expect them to be professionals, we pay them like professionals, we support them. Um in the political campaign Gore was s…s picking up from Clinton and saying that teachers need to be treated like the professionals they are. Unfortunately in the next breath he was saying but we have to test teachers. Uh but I I think if we can focus on that idea (clears throat) then we can help people to understand that the only change that’s ever going to take place happens in classrooms and it can’t be mandated and it can’t be forced and it can’t be dictated um either by me nor by any law or anything else that…it’s through the development of teachers and support of them that we’re gonna make the big progress.
“I don’t think so. No. You gave me a good range of things to talk about. You may find my wife saying similar things or different things.”