Christine Sleeter: OK. Christine Sleeter and I’m from California State University, Monterey Bay.
Um, I think of—I’m going to give you a definition of multicultural education. It’s probably different from the definitions that you may be use to reading or encountering. I would define multicultural education as a way of trying to shift the power over who gets to control decision-making about what happens in schools um and to democratize the decision-making process so that groups that have historically been left out of that process have a full voice in making um decision about education and particularly as it relates to kids from their own community. And I come to that definition because multicultural education—uh multicultural education grew out of the Civil Rights Movement um, during a time when um African-Americans and other groups of color had been pretty much excluded from the decision-making process about schools. And as the schools were being desegregated and African-American parents and educators found kids from their own communities in schools that were um primarily run by white educators who assumed that they knew the best ways to educate kids and put in place um, um processes that weren’t working for African-American kids. Such as putting them into the lower ability group assuming that they didn’t have the ability to learn as well, assuming that they were culturally deprived. Um, um the communities started saying, “Hey, education needs to be done differently.” And it was out of that community voice that the area of multicultural education came to be. Um, one may read a lot of—of definitions and conceptions of multicultural education. And I know that, for example, Carl Grant and I have written about different approaches to multicultural education. And—and I could elaborate on what each one of those approaches is, but the basic bottom line of what multicultural education means is—is the democratizing of educational decision-making. And can I give you one example? Um, a number of years ago—well, not that many years ago—several years ago, I was invited to South Africa um for three weeks to talk with people about multicultural education. And I remember that some of my hosts were saying that since multi—since the United States had been working with multicultural education for um a number of years that the folks in South Africa could learn from the US experience and could learn from things that we’d developed and may not need to go through all of the—the stages in trying to figure out what is multicultural education that—that we had gone through in the US. And what I found myself constantly saying is that the main issue in South Africa, as it is in the United States—the main issue in South Africa is that whites had been controlling the power to make decisions about education and that rather then whites now saying um, “Here’s now how education should go and we’ll call it multicultural education and we’ve imported it from the United States,” the whites really needed to do was to learn to listen and learn to share decision-making with people who had been historically excluded from the decision-making process.
Oh, um no. OK. Multicultural education—it arose out of the Civil Rights Movement and a—although in my own conception of multicultural education, as well as other people, I try to connect issues of race, social class, gender, disability, language. Um, at the same time—and I’ll talk some about those connections—but at the same time I really want people to understand that that doesn’t mean that you can then pick an issue and deal with—with say—say—say I decide, “OK, race isn’t my issue and I’ll pick gender.” That’s not what it’s about because then one moves away from dealing with um—with race as a form of exclusion and moves into dealing with something that you’re more comfortable with. And—and I find that actually quite a bit when working with teachers. When I frame multicultural education in terms of—of dealing with race, with social class, with gender, and with disability, the people will tend to pick up on the aspect of difference that they feel either most comfortable with or that speaks most directly to themselves. And in the process of—and what—what they’re usually doing is picking up on ways in which they themselves have felt disenfranchised. Um, which is important but in the process they’re not really picking up on ways in which they have been the disenfranchiser. Um, and with those of us who are white, we’re constantly um in—in many ways we’re the beneficiaries of racism and the perpetrators of racism and so you can’t say, “Well, I’m going to deal with something else because I’m, you know, either—I think that’s irrelevant or I think that doesn’t pertain to me or I don’t want to deal with that.” I don’t think you can do that. Um, but there are some common issues that people who have historically been excluded do face and um—and in thinking through how to—how to reform schools, we can use some—some common tools to understand um how to reform schools around um—to deal with racism and to deal with sexism, etc. Um, let—let me take an example. Um, if I take um the example of forms of—of institutional discrimination as they play out in schools and I ask myself a question such as um, “Who has access to the best instruction?” Um, I can start asking questions that may get me into looking at the tracking system, um that may get me—look into—looking at um where the best teachers in the school end up being placed and who their teaching. And—and then I can start—if I’m—if I look at it through the lens of race, then I can be asking um, “Are the white kids disproportionally getting put into the higher track and getting put with the—the better, more challenging teachers?” If I look at it through the lens of class, I can be asking, “Are the upper and middle-class kids ending up with being disproportionally put in the upper track and—and with the better and more challenging teachers?” So if I look at it through the lens of gender, the lens of r—of—of—of language, the lens of disability, I’m really asking the same question. And I think using all of those lenses to look at something like—like um “Who has disproportionally better access to—to high-quality instruction in a school?” um is really important. And actually if—if you start using all of those lenses, then you may start asking questions such as, “Well, why do we have a tracking system?” Maybe the whole system is one that maybe we really shouldn’t have? I—I can use—I—I can take other examples of the school like—like looking at the school curriculum and asking um, “Who’s—who’s knowledge is in the curriculum and who’s knowledge is excluded from the curriculum?” And again, use the lenses of race and ethnicity, and the lenses of social class, and the lenses of gender, and the lenses of disability. Just start asking, “Whose knowledge is there and whose knowledge isn’t there?”
Um, uh, yeah. Let’s see. I probably should have studied the questions before I came so I’d have more answers and I’m not just sort of talking right off the top of my head. Um, let—let me give you—actually, let me sort of back up a little bit and give you an example that—that—that relates to curriculum because I think it’s a really good example. Um, one of the teachers that I’m working with, um when she was in a class I teach on multicultural education curriculum design, she decided to design a unit—she was a high school um—high school social studies teacher and she decided to design a unit around um people who have been left out of history. And what she wanted the kids to think about is, “How do you decide what is important to teach in history and how do you decide whose experiences to include in the curriculum? And—and how do you—how do you decide even what counts as history?” So she decided to pick women who have been left out of the curriculum and primarily women of color. And—and so the kids had—there are about eight women of color that over a period of a week the—the kids um studied these women and con—were constantly then circling around the issue of—of whose experiences should be in the curriculum. And what—and actually they came to start um thinking critically about whose experiences were in their textbooks because the kids had sort of assumed that if it’s in the textbook it must be right. And they started um—thankfully they started questioning that assumption. And they got into some really um good intellectual debates about what counts as history. Should—should—um, or example, should literary authors be in—in textbooks. If you take somebody like um—like uh Maxine Hon Kingston, is—is she a part of history or not? And they got into some really, really good debates about that. But what—what the teacher had done um, I think, really well was to take the questions of—of—in—in her case she took—actually she did—she took—she kind of used all of the lenses, race, class, gender, and disability, to try to figure out who she wanted because then she was able to start surfacing ways in which um experiences of—of um people who have protested against the capitalists systems have been eradicated from history. Like you take Helen Keller and what do people know Helen Keller for? Well, they know her for her—her—well actually, a lot of people don’t even know about her for her activism. They think of her as—as simply a role model—a person with—with a two disabilities who ended up doing extremely well. And—and they—they don’t really know about her activism. And they also don’t know about her activism against poverty in addition to her activism among—or behalf of people with disabilities. So all of these kinds of issues started bubbling up um with—within this particular unit. And to me that was a wonderful example of somebody who is thinking in terms of multiple forms of exclusion and then trying to push the walls back on the curriculum and say, “Well, what might it look like if we started including experiences of people who had historically been um not included.” Um and um—and that was just a great example because the—the kids got probably more academically engaged with that unit then the teacher had seen them before. The teacher was really excited about the level of engagement that—that the students would um—would get into. Um, and I’m still sticking with the example on curriculum, but I—I wanted to um, um…
Yeah. I think of turning on learning as engaging kids intellectually. Um, when—when Carla and I were trying to come up with a way of—of talking about the transformation of curriculum and instruction, well we came to the idea of turning on learning because we had—we have sat in many, many classrooms that are deadly. Um, classrooms in which the kids—and often times if the kids themselves have been exposed to not very good teaching, they may come into the classroom with some of their academic skills aren’t all that good, um and—and so the whole level of what they’re getting taught will get in many ways sort of dumbed down and the curriculum that they’re being taught will tend to have this kind of wrote learningness to it and if the teaching isn’t very enthusiastic or the curriculum seems relevant to the kids, or the—the kids are—are being perceived as—as problems to the teacher—Um, I’ve been in a number of situation in which I’ve simply seen the kids disengage from learning. And—and then you’ll see them disengage when they’re either acting out or—or going to sleep or whatever. And I think that one of the hearts of what we should be doing as educators is trying to engage kids um intellectually. And by making our own teaching really relevant to the kids that we have in front of us—and there are a number of tools that one can do to do that. One can think in terms of—of what is culturally relevant to the kids. What is relevant to the kids in terms of their life experience outside of school? What questions do the kids have? What strengths do the kids bring? Um, how—how can we draw in the kids family and community life into the classroom? And—and how can we push the kids to think and be able to put together ideas and ways that are exciting to them? Um, how can we get the kids involved in sort of multiple ways so they’re not only engaging with text but they’re also engaging um possibly with—with dramatics, or with art, or with—with technology, with multiple ways of knowing um so that the kids aren’t really intellectually engaged. And it was that whole idea of intellectual engagement that led to uh the book title we used, “Turning on Learning.” And as I’ve read a number of research articles about kids um from historically excluded groups who do exceptionally well in school, the idea of academic engagement and intellectual engagement is one of the themes that keeps coming back. And there are kids who have teachers who really know how to—how to engage them and how to get them um excited about—not how to get them excited about what they’re learning because I think kids actually do come to us with excitements about what—what does interest them, but very often we don’t tap into that. We don’t even know what interests them. And so what we deliver to them doesn’t engage them, it—it sort of turns them off.
Um, to turn on learning for culturally and linguistically diverse students, there are a number of things that I think teachers can do. Um, one of the things is to um ask and find out what the kids are interested in and do well in their life outside of school. That may not necessarily at first blush suggest what one might do in the classroom, but to begin to draw linkages between what gets the kids excited and what they do well outside of school and—and then build on that inside of school um can be very helpful. For example, um when I’ve worked with teacher education students, I’ve—I’ve given them often uh questions that they can ask that I call icebreaker questions um when they’re just getting to know a group of kids. And one of the—um, one of the questions that’s been quite interesting has been ask—to ask the kids, “What have you done that you’re proud of?” Um, and most of the kids—most young kids do have things that they can talk about that they’ve done that they’re proud of. It could be having helped somebody at home or having, you know, mowed somebody’s lawn, or having fixed something, or having um drawn um a piece of artwork that—that then their mother framed and put up on the wall. Um, but most kids have something. And then to think as a teacher um, “These um things that the kids have told me, that their—um, that they are proud of, that they do well, are things that they—they tell me something about the strengths that the kids bring. And so how can I start trying to weave into my curriculum an opportunity for them to do more of what it is that they’re proud of?” So if it—if it’s possibly helping somebody or if it’s—and actually very often helping somebody is what comes through. Or if it’s—if it’s that they’re doing something particularly good with the arts, or if it’s that they—they got 100 on a spelling test, how—how can I build in ways in which them to display more of that in my classroom? So that’s one kind of thing. Um, another kind of thing is um making the um—I—making the curriculum academically relevant to the kids. Making it so that it engages the kids. Um, in my own teaching—even though I do teach um teachers and—and college age students, um I consistently find out when—when my curriculum relates to the um, um cultural communities that my students come from. And when I’m having them read authors who are members of the communities that they come from and work with ideas that are relevant from the communities that they come from, they are much more interested and—and um in some ways much smarter in my classroom then when I’m teaching them things that they can’t for the life of them figure out what it has to do with their own lives. Um, so relevance of the curriculum um and—and cultural relevance, um gender relevance, and—and—and not just sort of relevance in some abstract sense, but relevance in terms of—of the lives in the communities that—that kids come from. Um, another issue that I have frequently seen is teachers not knowing how to um, um honor the language that kids bring. And you don’t always necessarily have to speak the language the kids bring in—in order to honor it. Um, and—and I’ll preface this by saying that I do believe that people in the United States do need to learn English and do need to learn um to use um standard academic English, not as their only language, but as a linguistic repatra simply because that gets you places. But to have to learn that at the expense of your own cultural linguistic um repatra um puts a lot of kids in a position, an either/or position of—that’s a position that I don’t think anybody should be put in—in the position of. For example, the um language or dialect that I may speak with my grandmother with. If I go to school and I learn that that’s not what I should be—I—I should learn a whole different—different linguistic repa—repatra rather then, you know, in—in different settings I may want to use one or the other and that the one that I brought—I bring some linguistic skills and now let me add some more linguistic skills. Let me give you some more tools. Um, um the—the kind of both/and additive approach to—to language um is—is really important. Um, and—and I’ll give one more example of—or one more thing that teachers can do that I think is extremely important and that’s to develop relationships with the parents and the community that—that kids come from. Um, I’ve seen very often where teachers will drive into a school um and—and they’ll live somewhere else and drive into the school and kind of bypass the—the community and the parents, get into the school, teach, um call the parents up if there are problems at home, and then at the end of the day get into their cars and leave the community without ever really getting to know the community itself. Um, when I was um a uh beginning teacher, I lived in a—uh, primarily um, um an African-American community that students in the school I was teaching at were bused in from. And—and so rather then myself living in the white community and—and—I—I was more living in the black community and seeing school from the point of view of the black community and getting to know um some of the—the kids parents and stuff as they were in the community rather then just calling them up when there—there was a problem. And it makes a huge amount of difference in—in terms of my ability to understand where the kids were coming from and—and to be able to um, um relate constructively with the parents and be able to make some of the um curriculum modifications and—and just some decisions that sort of made sense from the community point of view.
OK. The—the social movement metaphor grew out of—of my understanding and also experience with multicultural education having arisen out of the Social Rights---uh, the Civil Rights Movement. I’ve uh worked with a number of teachers over the years who have come into multicultural education without having experience themselves in communities that are culturally different from their own and aren’t tuned into the struggles around um race and around poverty and around disability issues today. And—and come in with a sense of what they think multicultural education means or what—what they think culture means or—or what they think the issues are. And then bring into their teaching um their own rendition of what they think multicultural education means. And—and let me give you an example. Um, several years ago I was working with a teacher in a school that had um—it was a majority white school but it had a growing number of African-American and Latino students. And this was a teacher who was teaching high school English. And um she was describing to me a student of hers who was African-American who um—who wanted to read more African-American literature. And I said, “Well, yeah, that makes sense. Show me what your curriculum is.” And I also brought to her um a book that was—I think its gone out of print now—but it was a wonderful book that was published by um Harcord Brace, I believe, on African-American literature. It’s a great big, thick anthology. And she looked at and—it was this teacher—she looked at it and she said, “Well, yeah. We—we include a few African-American literary pieces but—but this—this African-American student has to learn to read everybody’s literature. She can’t just read African-American literature.” OK, now what does this have to do with the social movement metaphor? Um, where the African-American girl was coming from is that she had been in many ways systematically denied through her whole schooling experience mo—more then just a story here and there that was African-American literature. And she knew—on some level she knew that there was a whole body of rich work that would very much relate to her um on—on a number of levels. Her as a young female going through adolescents and there’s just a whole bunch of different ways in which this literature would be able to speak to her. And it would speak to her in ways that what was in much of the literature curriculum wouldn’t speak to her. And so when she was being offered a literature curriculum where about 8 percent of it seemed irrelevant to her and maybe 10 to 20 percent of it was relevant to her, she was asking for more of what made sense to her. And the—the white students were getting more of the curriculum that was relevant to them. Um, some of it—I think they still wondered about what the relevancy was like when they were having to read, you know, the Greek tragedy, you know, plays. I sat in the teachers classroom and watch—watched her teach—teach Greek tragedy and a lot of the kids looked bored with that. But um—but I think back to what the girl was asking for in her education as in many ways being the same thing that I would be asking for in my education and that is to have a curriculum that really speaks to me. Um, but she was asking for it from a vantage point of a young African-American woman and asking it of teachers who sort of thought its got to be multicultural but didn’t really understand where she was coming from. And it’s where she was coming from that actually gave rise to multicultural education in the first place. Um, I don’t believe that there can be a um generic multicultural education. But then we—we’ve come up with um these lists of these are the things that we should do. And anybody then can just sort of implement them where ever they are because multicultural education is really connected back to the struggles that historically disenfranchised groups, have, still have, and—and have historically had. And that I think if multicultural education is about um school reform and it’s about democratizing decisions about how a school should go, then rather then sort of coming in with this formula of, OK, I’m going to drive in from the suburbs or where ever I live and I’m going to teach what I think is multicultural, it’s really about engaging in collaborative decision-making with a diversity of people um who one might not be use to engaging in decision-making with. And some of the um, uh ideas that come out of that process maybe ideas that I as a professional educator think, “Hmm, well I don’t know if that’s a good idea.” And then I’m going to have to learn to do some, you know, listening and negotiation.
Let me think for a minute. I’ve written quite a bit about racism and have worked quite a bit with my students who before I came to California where I am now, most of my students in Wisconsin were white. And what I wanted my students to understand primarily were the reasons why multicultural education is important. Um, and by analyzing—particularly by analyzing institutional racism, and institutional sexes, and institutional classes um I wanted to raise the awareness of what the issues are and why the issues are important. Um, for example, I remember uh—I remember a—a white, male student that I had in—in one of my classes. And we were looking at um where jobs are located in cities and where um ethnically diverse groups end up um in housing due to residential segregation and how in—in the inner city area um—I was using Milwaukee as an example—in the inner city area of Milwaukee, African-Americans were facing um an unemployment rate of 26 percent um unemployed at the time and youth that was over 50 percent. And yet you go out to the suburbs, which is where the jobs have gotten moved out to industrial parks, and um—and the housing was primarily white and so out in the suburbs the unemployment rate was I think about 4 percent and among youth it was, you know, about 8 percent to something like that. And so the white students from the suburbs didn’t have a clue—just didn’t have a clue about the unemployment um that folks in the inner city were experiencing. Just did not have a clue. And then how does that impact on your future life chances? And if you’re a young person um, uh a young white person living in the suburbs um will have access to a job that may end up then paying for your college education that a young person in the inner city doesn’t have. And I remembered this um young, white male student—it was like all of a sudden these—this light bulb went on and he—he wrote in um, um one of the written assignments we had that he had never thought about that before. And when he reflected back on the relatively easy access he had to getting jobs um as a—a teenager and then a college student. And—and—and then he was saying, “Yeah, and I’m paying for my education with sum—you know, summertime and part-time jobs that I’ve had. And it never dawned on me that when my parents chose to move out of the inner city and to constantly move out into the suburbs um that that choice—uh, somebody who wasn’t white, who wasn’t relatively affluent couldn’t have made that same choice. And that choice gave me access to things.” And—and so—so then my question would be, “OK, well what do you do with that?” I mean, going through—you know, feeling really guilty about that isn’t going to get you anywhere. And what I would really want a person—where—where I would want a person to go with that is—is to understand that um issues trying to redress discrimination now and—and issues like affirmative action come about because not only historically have patterns of discrimination existed, but they still continue to. And—and so um the push for policies that at least try to kind of shift the rules or change the rules are in response to something. And for this student, um it was in response to something that he just simply didn’t have a clue what was happening. Now where—where I don’t want people to go with analyzing racism is to um get to feeling guilty. And I don’t know how to prevent that because whites will often go through a period of like, “Oh dear, I didn’t uh—I didn’t—I didn’t own slaves and I don’t know, you know, uh—I just feel so bad being white.” And well, that doesn’t really lead to constructive action. But I also don’t want it to get to white people spending a whole lot of time analyzing themselves because we kind of spend a lot of time—you know, we can end up doing that anyway. I’d rather get it to a point where somebody understands what the issues are and then how to collaborate um across cultural borders.
Um, it—I think as multicultural education as an arena of work and a—an intellectual and—and pedagogical space for us to talk about how schooling might be done differently given the legacy and current realities of racism and given the legacy and current realities of—of social class discrimination and language discrimination. And within that space I think that it’s important for—it—it kind of opens up a space, to be able to analyze how racism works and—and to be able to analyze and think um how might we do schooling differently? Um, I don’t think of multicultural education as giving a set of answers. I think of multicultural education as giving some tools for analysis, some tools for envisioning, and some tools for doing research, some tools for—for inventing. And in that sense, by um—by creating a space for thinking about doing schooling differently, multicultural education I think can then become a way of—of trying to address racism in schooling. I don’t know if that makes sense.
You mean like stories from my own teaching or stories from K-12 classrooms? (interruption) Um, let’s see. Let—let me tell you a little bit about a school that I’ve been doing um some work with in various forms. It’s located in California. Um, this is a school that serves mostly um, uh Latino kids. Uh, most of the kids that go there are children of migrant workers in the um Salinas Valley. And it’s a school in which the um—it’s an elementary school and it’s a school in which um the leadership team um—the principal and—at—at the time, actually, I interviewed them the assistant principal who’s now gone on to be principal of her own school. Those two folks were um also Chicano. And then the school has a staff developer who’s been um active—um, she’s white—and she’s been active in—in multicultural and bilingual education and social justice education for years, and years, and years, and years. And is a wonderful person with—with a—a—a real um, um—both a—a real big heart as well as extremely bright. And the—the three of them um have—have developed a vision for what the school could be that is based around um a—a vision of—of multicultural, antiracist, um bilingual schooling. And—and they—they’re constantly working to try to make that vision work better for their students. And it’s actually a wonderful place to be. The—the—the principal—I just think extremely highly of her um because she’s always kept that vision central to whatever they do in the school. And so she’s extremely interested in the kids achieving well academically and spends a whole lot of time working with the staff on “What do we know is working for our kids and what—and let’s do more of that. And what do we know isn’t working for our kids and let’s do less of that.” And so as a school they have a lot of dialog constantly around “How can we improve academic instruction?” And the student’s achievement scores have been going up um since she got there. Um, it’s also a school in which—she’s been working really hard to make um the—the—the curriculum culturally and linguistically relevant to the kids who are there and at the same time while grounding the kids and who they are culturally. At the same time um developing a multicultural antiracist curriculum that—that kind of like provides the kids both um roots to who they are as well as wings to be able to connect with other people. And um it’s—it’s—it’s a—when you go into classrooms at that school, it—it’s some place where I always feel really good when I’ve been in the classrooms because um there’s interesting work going on in the classrooms. There’s—she’s attracted some extremely talented teachers. Um, I’ve actually interviewed and um videotaped some of the teaching going on in that school because it’s really wonderfully, inspiring teaching. Um, not every day—I mean, every—every day one has a bad day, but most of the time—most of the time it’s—it’s really wonderfully, inspiring teaching. And when I’m trying to um think about what I can teach teachers about what multicultural education might look like, I try to think of examples of schools and teachers I know that are doing really wonderful, really well done things and both myself learn from those as well as um try to bring to teachers or bring teachers to models of where I think multicultural and bilingual education is—is being done really well and is being worked with with a whole lot of integrity. And—and that’s one example.
Um, I guess right now I live—right now I live in California and I hadn’t thought the—to the degree that I’ve thought—I hadn’t thought about this issue to the degree that I have until I moved in California, is that um I feel like in our whole funding structure for schools, increasingly children are taking a backseat. I mean, in our whole funding structure just for anything. I believe that um education is one of the most important social resources that we have in this country and I really believe that the next generations coming up are going to be critical to who we are as a people and by that I don’t really mean how competitive we are in the economic marketplace because I actually think that’s sort of the wrong direction for us to be heading. I think um issues around quality of life are a whole—whole lot more important then whether we’re number one. Um, and I don’t believe us being number one in the economic marketplace necessarily leads to a quality of life. Um, but I believe that kids are an extremely crucial um—crucial resource as well as they are only children, and it um—I get really frustrated when I see teachers having to work with way too little in terms of resources and with resources that seem to be cutting back. Um, last night I was having dinner with um a friend who I’ve been friends with ever since 1st grade, actually, and she’s a—a Title I reading specialist and she was telling me that she is—she needs money for books. She’s trying to help kids read better and she doesn’t have enough money for books. And I’m sitting here thinking here we are in a wealthy country and here’s a teacher who doesn’t have enough money for a rich library of books for kids. Now we talk about reading being a high priority and yet here’s a teacher who’s having to try and go find sources of money so that she can buy money for books. Um, teachers today tell me that they spend $1,000, $2,000 of their own money just to get resources to work in—in their own classrooms. And—and I think that—I think, actually all of this does relate back to race and class discrimination because as the kids are becoming increasingly racially diverse um I—it seems like—and I—I actually have statistics to back this up—that it’s primarily white, wealthy parents that are then pulling their kids out of the public schools and sending them to private schools. And in the process we’re ending up developing a very much of a two-tiered system. Um, and I think that in the long run as a society, we’re going to pay for that.
Um, yeah. Um, one other—one—one thing that I want to say. Um, and I’m not sure to saying this to pre-service teachers is necessarily the—the right audience to be saying it to but in—in teacher—teacher education is based around a model that people kind of volunteer to go into teaching. And if your grade point is OK, then we let you in to teaching and we send you through a teacher preparation program that then supposedly certifies you to teach all the kids in the state at the particular grade level or subject area. And—and then you—you know, you go out and—and—and are suppose to be able to teach. And the kids as a result of—of that way that people get selected into the profession, we end up with many um, um very bright, very well meaning teachers who want to teach kids kind of like themselves, um kids who are from communities that are at least relatively similar to their own and—and where they kind of have a sense of who the kids are because of—of their own life experience. And at the same time we’ll have um kids—language minority kids, kids from poor backgrounds, um kids of color who end up going um without credential teachers. And I can certainly see this in California where um in the—the poorer the school is and the more kids of color and the more language minority students there are in the school, the more um emergency um certificate teachers they have of people who haven’t gone through teacher education programs. And I really think that um the—the teaching profession needs to grapple with the issue of how do we find the adults who are from communities that have been historically underserved and are still underserved who would like to become teachers but don’t because of various things that have to do with the route by which you become a teacher. The—the assumption that you have to um quit your job, go to school full-time, got to a university that may be, you know, miles and miles from where you live even though, you know, by then you may have a family and you’re raising kids and you can’t afford to do that. Um, so the whole question around how do we decide who is going to be teaching in schools in culturally and linguistically diverse areas um I think needs to be rethought.